net worth

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by rrinebol, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. rrinebol

    rrinebol Newbie

    As part of the qualification the statemnet is made that one can not have assets over 80,000, not to include a house or vehicle. We sold my parents house and car so that there would be monies set aside for assisted living since they can not be left alone. It would seem to me that the assets should be much higher based upon the selling of those 2 items.
     
  2. mcrews

    mcrews Newbie

    as in most government programs, sometimes they don't seem fair but you just have to work within the program. in recent months the level of assets allowed seem to be much less then the 80k. Understand, the 80k is arbitrary. it is not written in stone. in fact it is on the high side. I don't know anyone in the last yr that has that much and was approved. The VA tends to allow one yr of uncovered costs.
    But why would you want to keep more and risk not qualifiying? that's like aurguing w/ medicaid over the 2k single person asset limit.
    Va allows the applicant to legally get below the asset limit.

    Mark John Crews
    Founder, StrategicC.A.R.E. Planning(c)
     
  3. I agree. Set up an irrevocable trust and put all excess money in there. It will put you below the limit and works like a charm. You can the beneficary since you are probably going to be one anyway and they get to receive some aid.
     
  4. pologal1979

    pologal1979 Guest

    again, this is CHEATING THE SYSTEM. Horrible advice, man.

    hiding assets = cheating the system.

    Where are people's morals and ethics?
     
  5. Cheating the system?
    Are you familiar with Irrevocable Trusts? If need be, I can help you understand the basics of one. There is no hiding assets, the assets are not there's anymore. Instead of gifting assets away to their kids and let them spend it freely, we have found that the parents are more comfortable allowing the kids receive the money after their passing, trusts allow this.
    I understand the side you are coming from where novices first read that and think to themselves oh they are hiding assets. Well if you would like for me to teach you the gifting bylaws of Title 38 of the US Code: VB, I can do that too briefly. Where it states that is completely OK for this type of gifting to occur and the requirement is that you send it in with the application. All they want to see is the trust and to make sure that is sound without any trap doors allowing withdrawing or any other actions.
    Ok are you on the side of the veterans or the big corporations? I know personally if I can help a Veteran get a benefit, which does not even come close to rewarding them not even a fraction for all the service that they have provided, I will get for him.
    Maybe I am so pro-Vet, because I am one myself.
     
  6. Fit2009

    Fit2009 Sr. Member

    Please post the reference where it says you need to include the trust document.
     
  7. pologal1979

    pologal1979 Guest

    aidandattendance - i am on the veterans side. ::)

    AND YES, THIS IS CHEATING THE SYSTEM.

    there are MANY honest and POOR veterans and widows out there that have NOTHING BUT THEIR SS BENEFITS to live on. yet, someone with $100,000K should be allowed to hide assets and get pension? i dont think so.

    VA pension is not a retirement pension, buddy. it is a SUPPLEMENTAL INCOME PROGRAM THAT IS MEANT TO HELP POOR AND I MEAN POOR CLAIMANTS TO LIVE. IT IS NOT MEANT TO BE AN EXTRA BENEFIT FOR SOMEONE THAT ALREADY HAS SUBSTANTIAL ASSETS. THE PROGRAM IS NOT MEANT TO PROTECT ASSETS FOR THE GREEDY KIDS.

    this is tax payer's money we are talking about. i protect the tax payer and look out for the honest vets.
     
  8. jpez

    jpez Full Member

    1. you are WRONG. It is not cheating. btw are you aware of the term libel and slander??
    You arguement is weak.
    By the way, you have always filed the short form on you taxes, right?
    Judge Learnerd Hand, longest sitting Appeals Court Judge, once ruled " it is the taxpayers RIGHT to take advantage of the provisions in the law."

    If the VA did not (legally) want to allow for gifting, then they can pass the laws and rules to do that.
    I don't know how many people you really know who are in care but it is financially devistating. 20% of all seniors are at home in some level of unpaid care from a loved one.
    When Jim Nicholson (past head of VA ) states that 22billion dollars went unused and only 5 billion was spent on 'pension' there is a problem.
    " ...not everyone is aware of their potential eligibility....Many elderly vets and surviving spouses whose income are above the limit may still be eligible for a&a."

    You do a dis-service by holding court and decreeing who can and can't.
    Who said anything about GREEDY Kids???? your comments are not based on fact but your own reactionary narrow opinion.

    jpez
     
  9. pologal1979

    pologal1979 Guest

    so, then your saying, it is OK for someone to manipulate their assets to take taxpayers money when they really don't need it?

    that is simply greed.

    if someone wants to take advantage of a loophole in the law, then so be it. it will be on their conscious, not mine.
     
  10. vbcoder

    vbcoder Jr. Member

    AMEN!!

    Thanks for posting it..
     
  11. jpez

    jpez Full Member

    Let's see if I 'understand' your logic.
    1. single Vet (over 65) needs A&A,for up to $1644. His gross income is $1700. no assets. By your logic he should not apply because his income is above the limit. EVEN THOUGH the ruls clearly state be can deduct CARE/Medical expenses.

    2. Same Vet, gross income $4,000. eligible for $1644. living at Assisted Living. by your logic he can not follow the rules and deduct his $4500 Assisted living costs.

    3. Ther requlations are clear on deductions for expenses. The regulations are also clear on how giving away assets are treated.

    4. Please show me the regulations that are inspiring your attitude.

    5. of course I'm trying to ignore that you are on the side of an organization that has SHREDDED applications....... ::)
     
  12. pologal1979

    pologal1979 Guest

    You have no idea what you are talking about. You do not understand how the program works. Let me break it down for you.

    Net worth is an entitlement factor for pension. If a claimant has assets over $80K, this portion of entitlement will be scrutinized. The question being, can the claimant's net worth take care of their living expenses and medical expenses without the help of VA pension? This is done by a request for a VA Form 21-8049. The claimant lists all their living expenses as well as medical expenses. If it appears the claimant can use their net worth to sustain their standard of living without pension (this involves some math), then they are denied pension. However, the claimant may reapply after their net worth has been spent down some. For example if a person has $150K in liquid net worth and their living and medical expenses are minimal or the net worth could be used reasonably for years to pay for the expenses, then they dont need pension. this denial based on net worth is based on FACTS not opinions.

    Again, pension is not meant to protect the claimant's existing assets. Now we are talking about people with assets of about $80K or above. If the assets can support the person, the dont need pension.

    When a claimant "gets rid" of their assets by gifting it away or putting it in some trust (so then the VA has NO idea they even had the money) BEFORE they even apply for pension, they are technically hiding assets from VA, IMO. They want the pension = Greed in my eyes. They want to protect their assets. But, you have to understand, pension is meant for the poor. Pension is equivalent to SSA's SSI (Supplemental Security Income). Pension is a supplemental income program. It is NOT a retirement. It is NOT something the claimant is automatically entitled to.

    The claimant has to show the NEED for this benefit. Meaning, their income is below the limit set by law and their net worth is not out of line.

    If the claimant decides to get rid of their money before applying it is their choice. its unfortunate that this loophole exists, but it does. And financial planners and other snakes out there will tell these veterans that they can "move" their assets to protect them and then they will be entitled to pension (asset wise). those rats are actually out for the veteran's money. They can easily convince people that this is legally OK and they can convince the vet they are ENTITLED to pension, so they can take advantage of this loophole. However, it costs money to set up these trusts etc. duh. those financial planners/lawyers are out to make a buck.

    But overall, this is a question of morals, not regulations.

    OK so, your scenarios dont make sense.

    #1. if the vet had no expenses, yes, his income is over the limit of about 19K (offhand) for a vet with no dependents with A/A. But, if he is entitled to A/A, and he is a resident of an ALF the ALF fees are deducted as expenses and would probably zero out income for VA purposes and give him max rate at that level. This has nothing to do with assets because he has none in your scenario. If this vet gave all his assets away before he applied, the VA would not have any way of knowing.

    #2. makes no sense. again, if he is entitled to A/A he can deduct his ALF expenses. this has nothing to do with assets.

    #3.your references are below. These are a few, but i dont want to bore anyone else who is reading this.

    #4. I know there instances of shredding in the VA. Those people who were doing that are idiots. There are problems and bad eggs in EVERY organization and business. So whats your point? Why the low blow? We are having a discussion about morals. This says a lot about your character. In any sense, VA now has much stricter rules on shredding that everyone must follow to avoid lost claims.

    Overall, it is my opinion that if a person gifts away money or hides it some way to become entitled to a benefit they dont really need, then that is greed. that is my opinion and i am sticking to it.

    It is sad that there are people out there that will be quick to take advantage of a veteran or widow to make money off of them in order to move assets etc. But, i have to be realistic and accept stuff like this goes on. What can the VA do about this? Well, really congress would have to change some laws, but you know in reality, if a vet was required to submit all bank statements for a year prior to his date of claim to prove $$ was not given away to become entitled, or whatever, the claims process would be more drawn out and would NOT help the people who are actually entitled to this benefit and need it to survive. Its not a perfect system, but that there are why there are checks and balances. Income matching programs, medical expense verification audits, etc. help but it is what it is.

    So, enough said on that.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    § 3.263 Corpus of estate; net worth.
    (a) General. The following rules are for application in determining the corpus of estate of a parent where dependency is a factor under §3.250, and the net worth of a veteran, surviving spouse, or child where pension is subject to Pub. L. 86–211 (73 Stat. 432) under §3.252(b). Only the estate of the parent, in claims based on dependency, or the estate of the veteran, surviving spouse, or child-claimant in claims for pension, will be considered. In the absence of contradictory information, the claimant's statement as to ownership and estimate of value will be accepted.

    (b) Definition. Corpus of estate and net worth mean the market value, less mortgages or other encumbrances, of all real and personal property owned by the claimant except the claimant's dwelling (single-family unit) including a reasonable lot area, and personal effects suitable to and consistent with the claimant's reasonable mode of life.

    (d) Evaluation. In determining whether some part of the claimant's estate should be consumed for his or her maintenance, consideration will be given to the amount of the claimant's income, together with the following factors: whether the property can be readily converted into cash at no substantial sacrifice; ability to dispose of property as limited by community property laws; life expectancy; number of dependents who meet the requirements of §3.250(b)(2); potential rate of depletion, including unusual medical expenses under the principles outlined in §3.262(l) for the claimant and his or her dependents.


    § 3.276 Certain transfers or waivers disregarded.
    (b) Transfer of assets. For pension purposes, a gift of property made by an individual to a relative residing in the same household shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate. A sale of property to such a relative shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the seller's estate if the purchase price, or other consideration for the sale, is so low as to be tantamount to a gift. A gift of property to someone other than a relative residing in the grantor's household will not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate unless it is clear that the grantor has relinquished all rights of ownership, including the right of control of the property.

    § 3.263 Corpus of estate; net worth.
    top

    (a) General. The following rules are for application in determining the corpus of estate of a parent where dependency is a factor under §3.250, and the net worth of a veteran, surviving spouse, or child where pension is subject to Pub. L. 86–211 (73 Stat. 432) under §3.252(b). Only the estate of the parent, in claims based on dependency, or the estate of the veteran, surviving spouse, or child-claimant in claims for pension, will be considered. In the absence of contradictory information, the claimant's statement as to ownership and estimate of value will be accepted.

    (b) Definition. Corpus of estate and net worth mean the market value, less mortgages or other encumbrances, of all real and personal property owned by the claimant except the claimant's dwelling (single-family unit) including a reasonable lot area, and personal effects suitable to and consistent with the claimant's reasonable mode of life.

    (c) Ownership. See §3.262(k).

    (d) Evaluation. In determining whether some part of the claimant's estate should be consumed for his or her maintenance, consideration will be given to the amount of the claimant's income, together with the following factors: whether the property can be readily converted into cash at no substantial sacrifice; ability to dispose of property as limited by community property laws; life expectancy; number of dependents who meet the requirements of §3.250(b)(2); potential rate of depletion, including unusual medical expenses under the principles outlined in §3.262(l) for the claimant and his or her dependents.


    § 3.274 Relationship of net worth to pension entitlement.

    (a) Veteran. Pension shall be denied or discontinued when the corpus of the estate of the veteran, and of the veteran's spouse, are such that under all the circumstances, including consideration of the annual income of the veteran, the veteran's spouse, and the veteran's children, it is reasonable that some part of the corpus of such estates be consumed for the veteran's maintenance.
     
  13. jpez

    jpez Full Member

    thanks!

    § 3.276 Certain transfers or waivers disregarded.
    (b) Transfer of assets. For pension purposes, a gift of property made by an individual to a relative residing in the same household shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate. A sale of property to such a relative shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the seller's estate if the purchase price, or other consideration for the sale, is so low as to be tantamount to a gift. A gift of property to someone other than a relative residing in the grantor's household will not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate unless it is clear that the grantor has relinquished all rights of ownership, including the right of control of the property.

    nough said.

    VA allows gifts.

    So let's look at you comments in the light of the law. Gifts done by the law are allowed.

    I respect you comments about the poor but you also miss the fact that this Non-service related DISABILITY Pension is really not intended to be used as a long-term care benefit for the elderly.
    It was a mis-defining of being over 65 that opened the floodgates. Over 65 is deemed 100% disabled.
    No proof of disability, just a birthday. So if you are going moral on us then stop using the Pension period.
    Look the VA is incompetant. you sluff off the shredding like ALL agencies do it???
    I guarentee that Medi-Cal has never shredded an app.
    App are logged, worker's are asigned, reciepts are given.
    And actually I know far more about how the program works than you seem to thing.
    THe fact that YOU posted the proof of allowable gifting and don't seem to realize it speaks volumes.
     
  14. pattyclarke

    pattyclarke Newbie

    May I ask what publication is being referenced with the section numbers for this discussion and where I might obtain a copy? I have looked through the PDF of the Federal Benefits for Veterans, Dependents, and Survivors 2009 booklet (which I have ordered,) but I'm not seeing the detailed information that is being discussed.

    Thank you,
    Patty
     
  15. jpez

    jpez Full Member

    OK so, your scenarios dont make sense.

    #1. if the vet had no expenses, yes, his income is over the limit of about 19K (offhand) for a vet with no dependents with A/A. But, if he is entitled to A/A, and he is a resident of an ALF the ALF fees are deducted as expenses and would probably zero out income for VA purposes and give him max rate at that level. This has nothing to do with assets because he has none in your scenario. If this vet gave all his assets away before he applied, the VA would not have any way of knowing.

    #2. makes no sense. again, if he is entitled to A/A he can deduct his ALF expenses. this has nothing to do with assets.

    #3.your references are below. These are a few, but i dont want to bore anyone else who is reading this.


    My point in #3 IS CLEAR. the VA allows deductions..... correct. The VA allows gifting and you have a problem.
    you want it both ways. you can't say oh take your decuction but "I think" you are a crook if you follow the code and do a gift.
    you seem to think that the asset discussion is seperate. It is not. A rule is a rule. That's like saying self-employed should not use schedule C on their tax form just because you are personally offended.
     
  16. pologal1979

    pologal1979 Guest

    § 3.276 Certain transfers or waivers disregarded.
    (b) Transfer of assets. For pension purposes, a gift of property made by an individual to a relative residing in the same household shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate. A sale of property to such a relative shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the seller's estate if the purchase price, or other consideration for the sale, is so low as to be tantamount to a gift. A gift of property to someone other than a relative residing in the grantor's household will not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate unless it is clear that the grantor has relinquished all rights of ownership, including the right of control of the property.



    UM,you did not read the whole thing. this means that the gift would have to be to a person who is not a relative of the claimant and lives in the claimants household. Try again.

    whatever else you wrote is just a mish mash of stuff. no sense to it.

    end of story.
     
  17. jpez

    jpez Full Member

    let me break down the specific statute:

    § 3.276 Certain transfers or waivers disregarded.
    (b) Transfer of assets.
    1.For pension purposes, a gift of property made by an individual to a relative residing in the same household shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate.

    This sentence defines a particular gift. A gift made to a relative who also lives in the same house. The rational behind this a vet husband can't gift to his wife. but also can not gift to a adult child who may also live in the home.

    2. A sale of property to such a relative shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the seller's estate if the purchase price, or other consideration for the sale, is so low as to be tantamount to a gift.

    This sentence now deals with property that has market value. (unlike cash which is covered in sentence 1.) If a piece of land is given to ' a relative in the home' then it has to be sold at market value or the gift doesn't count

    3. A gift of property to someone other than a relative residing in the grantor's household

    Now the focus is off the 'a relative in the home'. read the sentence. "A GIFT OF PROPERTY". The VA just acknowledged that a gift can in fact take place

    will not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate unless

    Now the VA is about to tell you the only condition that makes a gift acceptable by the use of the would 'unless

    it is clear that the grantor has relinquished all rights of ownership, including the right of control of the property.
    SO the requirement of a gift being acceptable is giving up control. oddly enough, that is the legal definitine of a GIFT.

    You have interpreted the sentence incorrectly.
    This is the correct grammer: “A gift of property to someone (break) other than a relative residing in the grantor's household (break) will not

    You are doing this: A gift of property to someone (break) other than a relative (break) residing in the grantor's household will not

    Please think about that. Someone – a stranger – has to LIVE with the Vet to receive a gift!!!!
    The third sentence is referring back to the first 2 sentences. The relative residing in the home.
    A gift can be made to: (1) a relative not residing in the home (2) a non- relative residing in the home (3) a non-relative not residing in the home. As long as total contol is given up by the Vet.
    I see now why you are confused.


    The correct grammar for what you wish it said is: A gift of property to someone, other than a relative, who is residing in the grantor's household
    For the verb ‘residing’ to apply to the first noun in the sentence ‘someone’, there has to be the word ‘who’. Otherwise the verb ‘residing’ applies to the noun ‘relative’ immediately in front of it.
     
  18. KarenO

    KarenO Jr. Member

    I'll just never understand why people want the government to pay for their expenses, etc. when they can afford it - whether it's legal or not to transfer money to your kids it's just not morally right. Geez, if my mom had the money to pay for her ALF I never would have dreamed of applying for benefits. As it is I have waited a year for benefits, shelling out $1,500 out of my own money every month which has put me in a terrible financial position and debt.
     
  19. jpez

    jpez Full Member

    Myths about how this program 'should' work, is the exact reason most vets don't and have never applied! They heard someone state a'myth' about the program and decided that they weren't eligible based on a myth. Not a fact.


    I just got of the phone with an attorney who was trained by the VA to teach the accredation class to attorneys. The statute allows specific gifting. period.

    ********************
    Judge Learned Hand (longest sitting Appeals Judge) once wrote in a decision against the IRS, 'the tax payer has a right to advantage of the provisions in the law.'

    The VA had a press release in 06-07 that stated
    WASHINGTON – The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is reaching out to inform wartime veterans and surviving spouses of deceased wartime veterans about an under-used, special monthly pension benefit called Aid and Attendance.
    “Veterans have earned this benefit by their service to our nation,” said Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson. “We want to ensure that every veteran or surviving spouse who qualifies has the chance to apply.”
    Nationally , the VA concluded up to $22 Billion a year goes unspent because vets “are completely unaware the program exists.”
    Although this is not a new program, not everyone is aware of his or herpotential eligibility. The Aid and Attendance pension benefit may be available to wartime veterans and surviving spouses who have in-home care or who live in assisted-living facilities.
    Many elderly veterans and surviving spouses whose incomes are above the limit for a VA pension may still be eligible for the special monthly Aid and Attendance benefit.

    ************************************************
    That 22 billion is not for 'poor' vets. it's for every vet. I don't see the phrase 'only the poor'.
    but I do see the word 'every'
    I also see a reference to vets with incomes above the limits.....
    while forums tend to bring out emotions, it is important that someone 'attitude and personal belief system' aren't used to deny eligible vets their rights.
     
  20. KarenO

    KarenO Jr. Member

    You said: That 22 billion is not for 'poor' vets. it's for every vet.I don't see the phrase 'only the poor'.

    It is not for every vet – it is for “every vet that qualifies” - whose income is below a certain level, whose assets are below a certain level and whose medical expenses are at a certain level. If it was for every vet, you wouldn’t have to prove your income – all you would have to do is prove you are a vet. Not sure what you mean by reference to “high” income – I don’t see a reference to high income, I see a reference that if your income is above the limit for a VA pension you may be eligible for A&A – you still have to qualify.

    And really, don't presume you know anything about me. You don't.
     

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